What ho,
I thought I'd start a discussion of what we all were thinking about how the 4e system is working so far, since we've reached 10 sessions (+1) of our campaign.
Some Thoughts:
Well, there are my first thoughts. 11/17/08 Dave Nelson
11/18/08 Andrew
*I very much enjoy being able to do something every round other than just 'I swing my sword <roll to hit> for x damage'.
*I generally like the system and the games we've had with it. Since basically my only exposure to something other than 2nd edition was through the Neverwinter Nights games, it has been pretty fast. It seems, though, that it's very narrow in it's definitions of character classes, as tanks, buffers, or damagers. In fact it seems very similar to World of Warcraft where they define groups under class rols of tanking, DPS (damage per second, basically people that do damage), and healers (except now there's practically no need for healers at all with the variety of abilities). Seems like before (with what I knew of 3e) you could take a variety of feats to mold your character into whatever sort of type of fighter, thief, etc, you really wanted it to be like. In 4e the abilities are very specific to what character can do what, with what. I really liked the idea of specialty priests that 2nd edition forgotten realms had. Each deity had it's own priest, which had it's own abilities, selection of spells (including spells specific to that particular deity), and selections of arms/armor that they could use.
*I think clerics at the lower levels here feel really anemic. Actually it's much the same thing I see as a weakness for wizards. It's much nicer having a variety of things we can do, but when I ran a cleric or wizard before I could pick a pile of spells up for whatever I was expecting, or for a particular role I was expecting. It's nice at low levels, but at higher levels you have comparatively few spells to lob around (granted the ones you CAN lob are very nice, and there are bunches of encounter spells) but the thought of being a wizard and only being able to throw a single fireball a day (especially for what is very weak damage compared to what it was before) makes me cry a little bit. As it is right now, all my healing spells are gone in 3 rounds.
*Ritual spells are poo. The costs are high and they take a long time to cast. Granted they are frequently very powerful, but they really underwhelm so much at our levels that it actually took me twenty minutes to pick out one of the free ones I got for my character. Not that it was difficult to choose, it was more like which one sucked the least. The problem is that they so underwhelm at the low levels that we forget about them, and don't pursue the ones that don't stink so much at higher levels.
*I think a big group like we have is a blessing and a curse, really. It's nice that we can bounce things off of each other, especially while the DM is involved in a talk with one or two players. It gets kind of bogged down from time to time, but I usually have fun listening or chiming in as an NPC. We have enough of a mix of classes that all we have to do is get into a formation and roll through just about anything. Granted we'd be pretty screwed if they enacted some kind of rules about firing weapons or spells into melee.
*I will agree with the HP's on stuff being extremely high. Like Dave said, it's more than a little depressing when you get a critical hit with an encounter power and barely scratch what you're fighting.
*Minions are a nice idea if you're going to have like a huge fight or something. I know from my experience that it sucked trying to keep track of the squishy guys HP's and whatnot.
*I like the handouts. This is basically my first character who is actually good and not a psychotic paladin (and one of a handful of characters that's not based almost totally on a movie character..ask me about my pimp halfling in Warhammer). It's nice to have an extra little goal and reward.
*I also like the lowbie one-use semi-magic item cards we were doing a while back. I don't think any of them were terribly bad or overpowering.
*All in all I'm very satisfied with how the games running so far. As it stands now, however, I don't think I'd be so inclined to run another cleric.
Jason
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Dave N 11/18
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Andrew 11/19/08
* Let me just start by saying that this is the best D&D group i have had, ever.
* As far as classes go, I am getting sick of the Wizard. In 3e, the wizard was the party's bag of tricks, but now that every class has their own special powers, he just doesn't feel that great anymore. All i really do is stand in the back and take potshots, and it's getting annoying. As we're playing now, I just don't see any reason for a controler. To me, it seems that the striker is the way that most people want to go. It must have something to do with dealing crazy ammounts of damage. The defenders are cool as well, simply because they have lots of HP. Leaders are alright. Just look at the number of each. 3 strikers (soon 4); 2 defenders; 2 leaders; and 1 controler. Shows how much fun the makers of the game had with each one.
* The Monsters are all really neat, even if they have too many hit points. One of the cool things that exsisted in the other editions was the idea of a solo, where one PC held off a small group of monsters while the others did something else. Now that idea has been flipped, where a single PC will be murdered in a 2 rounds, but there are monsters that can take the party by itself. I like minions, but that may just be because they are the sole reason for my class' exsistance.
* The handouts at each session are great. They help build my character almost as much as my own imagination. Each one gives me goals for the session on top of just surviving.
*I'd love the idea of buying magic items. I agree that a magic item shop is a little weird rules wise, but there are other ways. What if you payed a good dragon for the magic sword in its horde? Just an idea. But the ways we've been getting our magic items are pretty cool as well.
*But overall, I do enjoy 4e. Chris C 11/21/08
Andrew 11/21/08
* I have to say that after my admittedly brief exposure to 4E, I am not a fan.
* My biggest beef is with the classes. Each class feels smashed in to a narrow role that it is nearly incapable of getting out of. You want to be an effective two-weapon fighting fighter or rogue, good luck. That's not what their supposed to do so they stink at it. I can't even get into the former spellcasters, because I haven't played one yet, but I'm not impressed with what I hear.
* I also don't care for the “powers” system. I mostly end up using the same power over and over anyway, and the effects of “I swing my sword” is a lot easier to remember than “I use fangs of the wolf”. Hmmm, is “fangs of the wolf” 1W or 2W? Do I get my Str bonus? My Dex bonus? Is the guy dazed if I miss? If I wanted to remember crap, I'd play a mage.
* I also agree with all above that the monsters seem to have too many hp. A 2 or 3W crit against an equal level monster should at least bloody the thing every time, especially now that crits are harder to come by. THat being said, I do like the variety that seems to be available in their creation. Nothing is the same, and stupid sh*t like Improved Grab and its ilk seem to be gone.
* Now the minions concept is one thing I do like. Though the 0lvl guard concept was always kind of a joke, there are times when you just want to kill stuff with one hit. I never met a gaming group yet that didn't enjoy the occaisonal 0lvl one-attack-per-level turkey shoot.
* I like healing surges, but the concept behind them is unjustifiable. There is simply no non-magical way to explain the healing surge, but they come in handy, so I'm giving the designers a pass on this one.
* I liked D&D because it was different than the computer games, but now I can't tell them appart.
Just my thoughts,
Peter 11/24/08
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I tried an experiment last Sunday. I had the kobold priest's meat shields (The Stabbo-Maniacs) be not minions, not full monsters, but “Half-pointers” they had half the normal hit points are were worth half the experience points. I didn't use enough of them to prove anything, but they were easy to kill and yet had to be treated as real enemies. I may do some more experiments with them in the future. The other idea I've had is to give minions somewhere between 5 and 10 hit points, so a regular hit may or may not kill them, but a solid hit will definitely kill them. I'm just going to experiment here and there.
Dave N 11/27/08
First, as most things are, a link to a comic about 4e magical economy: http://nodwick.humor.gamespy.com/ffn/index.php?date=2008-11-19
Second, the discussion about buying magic items versus finding magic items reminded me of a few lines from a book I read (and strongly recommend) called 'Another Day, Another Dungeon' by Greg Costikyan. They were discussing hiring a cleric, and ending up with one who is falling down drunk for their adventuring party. The party leader expressed doubt in the cleric, and the party organizer said “Look, priests are people who sit safe, and comfortable, in cities and collect gold from rubes. We are heading into a dungeon full of monsters which is, by definitiion, neither safe nor comfortable. We are lucky to get any priest at all.” Basically, if magic users (cleric or wizard) can just sit in a city, make whatever people kind of magic item that customers want, why would they ever want to head into danger? I mean, other than rituals, the wizard doesn't even really learn spells when they advance levels.
I prefer that we only find magic items, but we can brew potions if we get the ritual (potions are one use, basically fairly brittle, and not really overpower). What I suggest is that the person who brews potions should be required to learn the recipes for the various potions from somewhere, whether it be a book, another brewer, rolled up in a pile of loot, etc. I would say if we do ever decide we can buy magic items, that people with 'enchant magic item' ritual should have to keep a recipe book.
Jason 11/29/08